I hear what you are advocating… I do think the origin of this problematic started more like 20 years ago or so when a lot of converts to Orthodoxy were being introduced to the broader metaphors and feasts of the Church. I distinctly remember downplaying of the Cross in the context of transfiguration and Resurrection. This made a generation of clergy - many convert clergy too - to begin really pitting east vs west. This ground I think led to the current argument. Also, Id be careful about apophaticism as a way of demurring from theological debate because we dont make claims about divinity. Thats not really what apophaticism is about in my opinion. Your advice for people to generally be quiet is spot on though. Many who are spouting off about these things are neophytes or have all of this info third hand. Theyre not reading Augustine, Anselm, Athanasius, Gregorys, Calvin, Aquinas and contemporary reformed… theyre watching videos and an essay or two… :/
PSA must have replaced the "Do Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same God" hot topic among the same online influencers. Always in the category "Answers to questions nobody had even asked". At least these debates don't last for long...
Thank you for trying to educate me … I’d never heard of PSA in this context. As the words you used, which I don’t understand fully, piled up, I just quit reading and jumped to the close. I just wanted to agree with your and Father’s conclusion.
We would be better, wouldn’t we, spending time contemplating God’s pure love for us, which needed to be healed … the scales of justice put right, so to speak …from the Fall.
In the cross He demonstrated to all of us sinners our Holy Father’s infinite forgiveness and love and mercy, giving us the opportunity to reconcile ourselves to Himself through His Son and the Holy Spirit.
What else is really required for us to understand in order for us to begin to find our way home.
I think that's basically a wise stance. The very conception of some problems is not really Orthodox and doesn't need to obsess us. The framing doesn't even fit, so any answer would be "not even wrong" (to quote Feinman) or "not even right."
On the other hand, we can't act like we're in a bubble either. Ideas don't only well up from within Orthodox circles sans interaction with a wider world. But most of those ideas probably aren't worth any formal position on (and if they are, council time).
First, I come as a friend and an admirer of your work! But I would want to push back a bit here. You write, "That, ultimately, is my position on PSA. We have our own traditional understanding of the Crucifixion; we have our own traditional language we use to express that understanding. We don’t need to justify or refute the Calvinist position. We don’t need to engage with it at all." And the overall argument seems to be, we don't need to be engaged with it all that much, and perhaps that we certainly don't need to be listening to people who have been Orthodox a few years trying to tell us what "the Orthodox" really think on a matter. I certainly agree on the latter.
My issue is on the former. I'm not sure what your interaction with Protestantism, and especially evangelical Protestantism, has been in the past. But as someone who came from that world, it is hard to explain the huge grasp that belief has on the believer's heart. Penal substitutionary atonement IS the Gospel. The whole thing. To see someone who does not see if as the main thing is to see someone more than bordering on heresy. So even though the Orthodox have their way of viewing these matters, to an evangelical coming in, they will read the Orthodox view through their lens of PSA. As a convert from 2022, this is still one of the most confusing issues for me, and at the beginning, it was anxiety-inducing. Was I turning away from the Gospel!?
So, for me, I found a lot of stuff very helpful and I'm glad people like Fr. Florovsky, Fr. Matthew Baker, Fr. De Young, Fr. Jeremy Davis, and Frederica Mathewes-Green addressed the issue. Perhaps they are not your issue, and your larger concern is the online debate now going on with certain influencers. If that is so, forgive my lack of reading nuance! There is more that I could say, but I just really wanted to add some context to this for me and for many others who come into Orthodoxy with a baggage that I think is good to have addressed, as it is difficult to even taste the sweetness of the Orthodox view (whatever that is!) with that lingering bitterness of guilt from "leaving" PSA.
I will just add too that for me the most confusing part of the debate has actually been the intra-Orthodox debate about East vs West, not so much the debate between Orthodox and Protestants. I think the Orthodox have had very helpful correctives, and even some Protestant dissenters like David Moffitt and Andrew Rillera (?) have been helpful. However, I keep hearing about this ideological shift that happened to the Orthodox because of the work of Romanides that has blinded Orthodox converts to the "real" Orthodoxy of, from what I can gather, Bulgakov, Berdyaev, and Solovyov? So are we entirely distinct from the West or not really all that different? This, for a convert, is the most difficult part, and I tend to find that those who accuse Romanides of poisoning the well don't really tend to have all that helpful advice on finding the true Orthodox Church. So I try to focus on Saints, and for any modern theology I tend to stick with Staniloae, Larchet, Hierotheos Vlachos, Zizioulas, Kallistos Ware, Andrew Louth, Fr Hopko, and a few others that seem to have broad approval. Basically whoever my Priest likes, as he tends to be great at avoiding the extremes and the fads. I do love Lord of Spirits, but the reception among priests I know is very mixed.
So maybe now I've talked myself into some sort of agreement with you. Just listen to your Priest and let him guide you!
I miss the days when I thought PSA stood for public service announcement.
That’s exactly what my wife said lol
I hear what you are advocating… I do think the origin of this problematic started more like 20 years ago or so when a lot of converts to Orthodoxy were being introduced to the broader metaphors and feasts of the Church. I distinctly remember downplaying of the Cross in the context of transfiguration and Resurrection. This made a generation of clergy - many convert clergy too - to begin really pitting east vs west. This ground I think led to the current argument. Also, Id be careful about apophaticism as a way of demurring from theological debate because we dont make claims about divinity. Thats not really what apophaticism is about in my opinion. Your advice for people to generally be quiet is spot on though. Many who are spouting off about these things are neophytes or have all of this info third hand. Theyre not reading Augustine, Anselm, Athanasius, Gregorys, Calvin, Aquinas and contemporary reformed… theyre watching videos and an essay or two… :/
Great insights. Thank you Father!
PSA must have replaced the "Do Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same God" hot topic among the same online influencers. Always in the category "Answers to questions nobody had even asked". At least these debates don't last for long...
Thank you for trying to educate me … I’d never heard of PSA in this context. As the words you used, which I don’t understand fully, piled up, I just quit reading and jumped to the close. I just wanted to agree with your and Father’s conclusion.
We would be better, wouldn’t we, spending time contemplating God’s pure love for us, which needed to be healed … the scales of justice put right, so to speak …from the Fall.
In the cross He demonstrated to all of us sinners our Holy Father’s infinite forgiveness and love and mercy, giving us the opportunity to reconcile ourselves to Himself through His Son and the Holy Spirit.
What else is really required for us to understand in order for us to begin to find our way home.
Great work.
Thank you my friend
Hear, hear!
I think that's basically a wise stance. The very conception of some problems is not really Orthodox and doesn't need to obsess us. The framing doesn't even fit, so any answer would be "not even wrong" (to quote Feinman) or "not even right."
On the other hand, we can't act like we're in a bubble either. Ideas don't only well up from within Orthodox circles sans interaction with a wider world. But most of those ideas probably aren't worth any formal position on (and if they are, council time).
First, I come as a friend and an admirer of your work! But I would want to push back a bit here. You write, "That, ultimately, is my position on PSA. We have our own traditional understanding of the Crucifixion; we have our own traditional language we use to express that understanding. We don’t need to justify or refute the Calvinist position. We don’t need to engage with it at all." And the overall argument seems to be, we don't need to be engaged with it all that much, and perhaps that we certainly don't need to be listening to people who have been Orthodox a few years trying to tell us what "the Orthodox" really think on a matter. I certainly agree on the latter.
My issue is on the former. I'm not sure what your interaction with Protestantism, and especially evangelical Protestantism, has been in the past. But as someone who came from that world, it is hard to explain the huge grasp that belief has on the believer's heart. Penal substitutionary atonement IS the Gospel. The whole thing. To see someone who does not see if as the main thing is to see someone more than bordering on heresy. So even though the Orthodox have their way of viewing these matters, to an evangelical coming in, they will read the Orthodox view through their lens of PSA. As a convert from 2022, this is still one of the most confusing issues for me, and at the beginning, it was anxiety-inducing. Was I turning away from the Gospel!?
So, for me, I found a lot of stuff very helpful and I'm glad people like Fr. Florovsky, Fr. Matthew Baker, Fr. De Young, Fr. Jeremy Davis, and Frederica Mathewes-Green addressed the issue. Perhaps they are not your issue, and your larger concern is the online debate now going on with certain influencers. If that is so, forgive my lack of reading nuance! There is more that I could say, but I just really wanted to add some context to this for me and for many others who come into Orthodoxy with a baggage that I think is good to have addressed, as it is difficult to even taste the sweetness of the Orthodox view (whatever that is!) with that lingering bitterness of guilt from "leaving" PSA.
I will just add too that for me the most confusing part of the debate has actually been the intra-Orthodox debate about East vs West, not so much the debate between Orthodox and Protestants. I think the Orthodox have had very helpful correctives, and even some Protestant dissenters like David Moffitt and Andrew Rillera (?) have been helpful. However, I keep hearing about this ideological shift that happened to the Orthodox because of the work of Romanides that has blinded Orthodox converts to the "real" Orthodoxy of, from what I can gather, Bulgakov, Berdyaev, and Solovyov? So are we entirely distinct from the West or not really all that different? This, for a convert, is the most difficult part, and I tend to find that those who accuse Romanides of poisoning the well don't really tend to have all that helpful advice on finding the true Orthodox Church. So I try to focus on Saints, and for any modern theology I tend to stick with Staniloae, Larchet, Hierotheos Vlachos, Zizioulas, Kallistos Ware, Andrew Louth, Fr Hopko, and a few others that seem to have broad approval. Basically whoever my Priest likes, as he tends to be great at avoiding the extremes and the fads. I do love Lord of Spirits, but the reception among priests I know is very mixed.
So maybe now I've talked myself into some sort of agreement with you. Just listen to your Priest and let him guide you!